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delving the physics driving the representations

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delving the physics driving the representations

Postby Milieu intérieur » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:11 am

Sometimes I go to reminding things like there existed a biology before the learned subject, before the term, before the word-concept came into existence. Not to be excluding proto-conceptions, or even native or intuitive conceptions. I mean my brain generates some type of map of the body-vehicle for coordination and more, its shape and position, and trajectory etc I suppose if I'm moving. I have a map internal of body shape. Reinforced by moving and interacting with things external, body to external objects, and body shape and parts in relation to each other. There must be some knowledge [perhaps analogue] of the weights or masses of these aspects of the body, their inertia, momentum, kinetic energy perhaps, the mechanics, the mechanisms even.

So I can say I have a biology independent of the term, that historically our ancestors had a biology too, before the term and learned subject came about.

It could be said that the real biology [the organism] is involved in generating the mental construction we call 'biology'. The biology generates the construction, but the construction doesn't generate the organic thing [there are exceptions maybe not immediately relevant for the moment].

What though of 'geometry', specifically say the geometry of some mechanism of the human body. Say the workings of a full leg. Geometry on the face of it to me looks more like math, something we apply, some 'operation', some representation. I mean a line and a dot of two dimensions don't really exist other than on paper etc. Then there are three dimensions.

Surely geometry doesn't have to involve numerical measurement shall I say, or even the intention or objective of exactness [or some 'purpose']. It could be substantially exact in ways if done through physical things, physical mechanisms, that are happened upon.

So I am wondering what the basis of geometry is preceding the term, previous to anyone ever doing lines and dots etc. People do intuitive geometry, I mean like catching a ball in flight is an example. This must be done in some type of internal workings that don't need 'language' as we'd commonly understand it, don't need to be taught, still fine tuned with experience.

Is geometry a device of the mind only, for computation of sorts, or is there geometry out there? Isn't an example of another person doing intuitive geometry to catch a ball an example of geometry that really exists, a real physical thing?

Where do the ball in flight and the efforts to intercept it really start? Is the ball for some reason invested with the possibility it may be intercepted. The ball flight and the potential catcher both have a similar physics about them. Some shared physics.

What are the origins of what we call "geometry". Is it the product of physical forces, and to what extent can these forces be said to be 'mechanisms'.

Take the apparently simple act of standing vertically, gravity is used as a reference for corrections, so is involved in the geometry. Analogue maybe, but the reference or large part of is an invisible force. Its effects of course are not invisible.

So can a reliable reference to an invisible force incline the evolution of representational type geometry we are familar with [the math one], and does it have its foundation in a more physical and perhaps material or even mechanical geometry?

Was there geometry before life existed?
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby Helix » Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:10 pm

What does Wikipedia say on the subject?
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby Milieu intérieur » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:18 pm

*climbs back into the creche*
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby justjj » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:26 am

Milieu intérieur wrote:*climbs back into the creche*


*considers joining*

ON the w/e I was working with H and M and they came to a low down branch on a tree that was dead and wanted to break it off.
For quite a while they worked at levering it up and down and back and forth to break it off completely. One left to do something else while the other kept at it.
The one who had left, returned after a while, watched for a moment and then cleared a path (through the waist high weeds) to grasp the branch further out from the trunk (you will see what's happening :))

Suddenly the task was easier and it snapped off.

I asked about the idea ... how come that idea came, where from, etc etc (you can hear me).

They eventually decided after back and forthing together, that it might have already been made weak because of the wriggling they had already done, and so was "ready" to fall off, but could not offer any kind of reason for moving out further from the trunk. THAT might equally have been that they didn't have the words for explaining what they had come to figure out or maybe it was still an experiment that just happened to work that time ... serendipity.

I'll keep my eyes open to see more examples of this principle in their work / play, though I don't see them often any more.

I think that this is some of that early, intuitive amassing of experience that could well be called the earth's laws of physics teaching them about how it works.

I like that these kids have not had people around them always feeling obliged to be offering explanations about how and why this or that happens or just "is so", but wait on them as _they_ work things through.

I think school teaches kids that school teaches kids ... and too often undermines the kind of considering / learning that I watched.
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby Milieu intérieur » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:36 am

Think it the case that of normal childhood experience to have ever climbed a tree, courtesy of our ancestors experience, of non-human primates too [the ones that failed this test many of them didn't live to breed], anyway you'd have climbed a few trees [no inference but there's a joke in there for you anyway] when younger yourself and got the feel of venturing out further on a branch/limb than may be safe. This lesson of weight and gravity and the forces on the limb [including uncertainties re limb strength] a preschool child doesn't just intuit from lifetime experience alone, and certainly wasn't 'taught' such a thing. The ancestors that failed the test more often had less offspring, or even none, or didn't live to help their own raise offspring. Having observed another fail is a strong lesson too, much evolutionary advantage in being better adapted to learning quickly from others [sometimes fatal] mistakes.

The example I give of non-human primates climbing or sleeping or whatever out on limbs is a good example of intuitive physics and geometry I suppose, and similarly applies to your example, though the kids you mention are probably better experienced at operating electronic gadgets than climbing trees :). You know how it goes. My two girls here use their hands for operating their iPhone things. It apparently is more engaging and has more status than climbing a tree. How would a 47 year old woman and a 22 year old girl look up in a tree. The view from the tree though would be good, probably better than anything on a gadget.

You know about going out on limbs and testing the springiness, it's not all in that though, you know the sound it makes as it flexes [that might get you worried], the look of the limb too.

Careful not to venture out too far onto the 'modern tree limb'.
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby roughbarked » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:22 pm

justjj wrote:
Milieu intérieur wrote:*climbs back into the creche*


*considers joining*

ON the w/e I was working with H and M and they came to a low down branch on a tree that was dead and wanted to break it off.
For quite a while they worked at levering it up and down and back and forth to break it off completely. One left to do something else while the other kept at it.
The one who had left, returned after a while, watched for a moment and then cleared a path (through the waist high weeds) to grasp the branch further out from the trunk (you will see what's happening :))

Suddenly the task was easier and it snapped off.

I asked about the idea ... how come that idea came, where from, etc etc (you can hear me).

They eventually decided after back and forthing together, that it might have already been made weak because of the wriggling they had already done, and so was "ready" to fall off, but could not offer any kind of reason for moving out further from the trunk. THAT might equally have been that they didn't have the words for explaining what they had come to figure out or maybe it was still an experiment that just happened to work that time ... serendipity.

I'll keep my eyes open to see more examples of this principle in their work / play, though I don't see them often any more.

I think that this is some of that early, intuitive amassing of experience that could well be called the earth's laws of physics teaching them about how it works.

I like that these kids have not had people around them always feeling obliged to be offering explanations about how and why this or that happens or just "is so", but wait on them as _they_ work things through.

I think school teaches kids that school teaches kids ... and too often undermines the kind of considering / learning that I watched.



If ou have ever watched Daphne on the program "eggheads" abc @ 5 pm.

she always says, this is a complete guess as I don't know and nine times out of ten she is correct.

Leverage is something that is taught or observed and comes back to the fore when the need arises.
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby roughbarked » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:24 pm

Milieu intérieur wrote:
Careful not to venture out too far onto the 'modern tree limb'.

Define 'modern' in this context.
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby Helix » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:33 pm

roughbarked wrote:If ou have ever watched Daphne on the program "eggheads" abc @ 5 pm.

she always says, this is a complete guess as I don't know and nine times out of ten she is correct.



A university education is a handy thing. Not essential, but quite handy.

Also, how do you know that she really is guessing vs saying she's guessing?
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby justjj » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:55 pm

I'd say much, much more than handy, but that too.
I am one of the lucky ones who got to go as a mature-age student courtesy of the extension of "free" education way back when ... and couldn't agree more .. it was a revelation AND useful.

wrt Daphne and "guessing" I do believe you are right; some of that is "theatre" for good reasons .. sometimes blending education and entertainment is absolutely .. I was going to say justified but even essential.

In a classroom where you are known well to your students I think it is important to say to them, I know one answer to this question, but I am wanting to present the issue to you as a question for your consideration ... blahblahblah.

That way I would hear ALL kinds of ideas even though they knew I knew one answer. I never did like people pretending not to know something as a device ... but that's just me. Often the students' ideas revealed all kinds of things that needed exploring and not as ... "teachable moments", which I thought too often hijacked learning moments of considerable significance.

The "modern" belonged to a larger expression I believe.

And I do see that you are going further back than I, mi.
I had forgotten that parallel / similar exercise.

These two do climb trees of the kind that haven't changed since ummmm Neanderthals? (were there trees then or only algae? jj (as in just joking).
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby roughbarked » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:28 pm

Helix wrote:
roughbarked wrote:If ou have ever watched Daphne on the program "eggheads" abc @ 5 pm.

she always says, this is a complete guess as I don't know and nine times out of ten she is correct.



A university education is a handy thing. Not essential, but quite handy.

Also, how do you know that she really is guessing vs saying she's guessing?



I'm not saying a university education doesn't have advantages, if you can get one.

As for her guessing.. I think you missed my point entirely.
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby roughbarked » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:30 pm

justjj wrote:I'd say much, much more than handy, but that too.
I am one of the lucky ones who got to go as a mature-age student courtesy of the extension of "free" education way back when ... and couldn't agree more .. it was a revelation AND useful.

wrt Daphne and "guessing" I do believe you are right; some of that is "theatre" for good reasons .. sometimes blending education and entertainment is absolutely .. I was going to say justified but even essential.

In a classroom where you are known well to your students I think it is important to say to them, I know one answer to this question, but I am wanting to present the issue to you as a question for your consideration ... blahblahblah.

That way I would hear ALL kinds of ideas even though they knew I knew one answer. I never did like people pretending not to know something as a device ... but that's just me. Often the students' ideas revealed all kinds of things that needed exploring and not as ... "teachable moments", which I thought too often hijacked learning moments of considerable significance.

The "modern" belonged to a larger expression I believe.

And I do see that you are going further back than I, mi.
I had forgotten that parallel / similar exercise.

These two do climb trees of the kind that haven't changed since ummmm Neanderthals? (were there trees then or only algae? jj (as in just joking).



as in joking, was well worth adding. ;)
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby Milieu intérieur » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:59 pm

Probably counterproductive in ways to overly socially load reality, which media etc do, industrial-scale 'social' or such aspects of com's being the case today, doing the work of education/entertainment, and the pace of it all, what can be said, but the point being it is loaded at the expense perhaps of understanding more simple things around us. If the busy-ness of that going into all that generates the social reality overshoots and essentially overdetermines itself then reference to the 'authority' of the 'forces of nature', even basic physics say, then the latter may tend to be underdetermined [in important ways to do with what makes an individual], which IMO has implications for maintaining an egalitarian ethic and more (which incidentally is not much to do with everyone being equal).
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby roughbarked » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:04 pm

Milieu intérieur wrote:Probably counterproductive in ways to overly socially load reality, which media etc do, industrial-scale 'social' or such aspects of com's being the case today, doing the work of education/entertainment, and the pace of it all, what can be said, but the point being it is loaded at the expense perhaps of understanding more simple things around us. If the busy-ness of that going into all that generates the social reality overshoots and essentially overdetermines itself then reference to the 'authority' of the 'forces of nature', even basic physics say, then the latter may tend to be underdetermined [in important ways to do with what makes an individual], which IMO has implications for maintaining an egalitarian ethic and more (which incidentally is not much to do with everyone being equal).



equity is a basic.
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby Milieu intérieur » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:20 pm

Elsewhere talking about this subject...

...more I’m saying the physical forces around us, the constants and those cyclic (and more) are 'teacher’ involved in the emergence and evolution of life here on earth. Order is conveyed by favourable circumstances. I am saying the math (computation more broadly) we do has an origin in some type of physical geometry that predates life. That this is made possible by referencing to a force or forces that are not material things, but physically real.

The relationship of geometries of the physical world involve material matter that are manipulable and physical forces that are otherwise and substantially different. The otherwise and relationship with the former require an abstract 'fill’ computation to work with, or something analogue. The relationship of the two can be said to involve 'physical mechanisms’, so I can’t see why over time these physical relational mechanisms can’t generate 'fill’ computation mechanisms.

One of the most simple starting points to considering it is what goes into standing up. You make corrections for balance around the force of gravity, it provides a solid reference. This involves 'forces’ and geometry. We may tend to focus on the material things involved, but I would say the physical force of gravity (for example) being not a material and other than a manipulable thing to be important to being able to do that at all.

It’s like that being other-than-material as I indicate and being involved in the relationship with material things may be of which springs something interesting.

That the most 'solid’ reference is not materially solid at all is worth a thought IMO.
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby Milieu intérieur » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:38 am

Perhaps not entirely a thread derailment, but I find breaking branches off trees to have a similar alarming impact as if I were standing on them and heard the sound.

Another thing I've noticed, perhaps ten years back now, was that while shaving if the wife's hairdrier or something fell out of the cabinet [to the right of me to the example] I would catch it as a reflex action even though it was so far to the side and in my peripheral vision only. This reflex action would be very important to my ancestors that swung from or lived a lot of their life in the trees. A life saver for sure. Also humans and ancestors have carried young around a lot, so being quick to grab them as they slipped, or were to fall, would have been advantageous.
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Re: delving the physics driving the representations

Postby Milieu intérieur » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:03 pm

Often thought also there is a neat and substantial lesson [nature as 'teacher'] in watching shadows, like that of a person walking, angle of sun, shape of shadow, and that it walks or whatever, impressive really. Perhaps one of the most relaxing things I find is sitting or laying under a cedar tree and the shimmering or however you describe the effect [which has an affect] with sun coming through with a little wind [the randomness of it], but further the effect of the persistence in the eyes as you close them, or open them slightly then shut them [as like dozing], truly I reckon you'd have to take LSD or something to get that by some other way.
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