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the work of minds (senses folded back)

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the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby Milieu intérieur » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:11 pm

What's that gift called that inclines differentiating the work of (the) mind/s from other realities.

Could it (have) be/en done without having ever slept (homeostasis being a simpler business). Or, related maybe, could it have ever happened had you been wakeful forever.
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Re: the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby Milieu intérieur » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:42 am

Consider sleep a mental state, which one visits mostly each day, sometimes more than once. Think of it as like a home, a familiar place, where the variable I resides, senses/sensory input folded back. Who hasn't woken once ever, ventured the land of wakefulness, and you know it's like leaving a friend, for a day or whatever. You know you'll be getting together again later, sure as the sun goes down and rises (or earth spins, for the astronomically correct).

It's probably correct too that diurnal creatures sleep so not (so) tired when awake. Most would've experienced sleep deprivation, and reduced attention capacity from tiredness, or fatigue, it's punishing too, the RAS probably contributes to that.

Sleep maybe can be seen as a friend of wakefulness.

More though i'm exploring the idea that (the mental state of) sleep qualifies as friendly and friend, perhaps in ways that friends in the wakeful world do.

It's easy to think, and probably reinforced by ideology the tendency to equate conciousness with wakefulness.

The more alert, the more vigilant, the more receptive to external environment the more conscious. It maybe right to an extent, but could be substantially wrong in a way, part of an illusion.

What if the tricks of consciousness were yielded in the transition into the twilight. The retreat from wakefulness to visit that old friend, that home in which homeostasis is a simpler affair.
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Re: the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby *jj* » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:57 pm

I have more of a handle on the discussion with your second post but still find putting my own thoughts into words tricky even "trap-like".

You said:
It's easy to think, and probably reinforced by ideology the tendency to equate consciousness with wakefulness."

I think generally the two are equated, but whether it's ideology or something else am not sure.

Am wondering if the conscious = wakefulness (or not "equals" but equates, in the more general sense) cuts across / takes for granted or even depends on assuming that active mode is equated with being awake and passive with being asleep?

I'm not looking to agree or disagree, but add my observation that I find the active/expressive mode highly valued, generally, and the passive/receptive/reflactive generally not-so-much.

In my own experience it's the reflective "down time" AFTER putting in the active "gathering" that offers more inclusive insights ... and I think that is (generally speaking) what I am seeking.
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Re: the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby Milieu intérieur » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:40 pm

>I think generally the two are equated, but whether it's ideology or something else am not sure.

reinforced ol' done say.

the idea is that increased receptiveness to that external might be equated with being more conscious (aware), at the expense of the somewhat contradictory possibility that the retreat (retreating, and the retreat) may contribute to consciousness (each day, over the life of an organism, and of philogeny too/evolution of the organism/bio-history).

retreating to a sleep state, that might be understood to be a state of reduced awareness - less conscious - does not exclude the retreat/ing from being involved in making (increased) consciousness possible (during wakeful periods, which it obviously does).

I'm suggesting consciousness more generally requires that retreating.

Representations (generated by minds) are wonderful things, quite useful too, some part-shared, some more comprehensively shared, some unshared.
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Re: the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby Milieu intérieur » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:08 pm

Imagine ET's a clever creature, thinks a lot, and it crossed his CNS for a moment that in a far off galaxy somewhere there's an ET species (to him) that have personal computers with programs (with attractive screensavers of course) that crunch away on data from telescopes viewing space, looking for anomalous EMR amongst it all that might confirm the likes of his own.

The computers crunch away all night while the humans are asleep. Too the humans are working on AI and hope to find the tricks of consciousness and have wide-eyed learning machines, robots or whatever.

So humans search the skies all day, all night, all year, every year looking for ET. Back home humans want machines, thinking machines, conscious machines that are wide-eyed and responsive all day, all night, all the time. If ET watched our TV he'd probably think humans never slept.

Humans have researched drugs to reduce the need for sleep, sometimes it's (sleep) talked about as if inconvenient, or an anomaly. That diurnal thing, circadian rhythms or whatever.

But, is there much else in the universe more powerful than solar cycles embedding incremental order. The day/night, sunrise, sunset.

So while we look to wide-eyed wakefulness for consciousness, maybe it's partly wrong, substantially wrong.
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Re: the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby Helix » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:08 pm

Dunno if this is of any interest: A 2013 TED talk by Prof. Russell Foster on the importance of sleep.

Russell Foster is a circadian neuroscientist: He studies the sleep cycles of the brain. And he asks: What do we know about sleep? Not a lot, it turns out, for something we do with one-third of our lives. In this talk, Foster shares three popular theories about why we sleep, busts some myths about how much sleep we need at different ages — and hints at some bold new uses of sleep as a predictor of mental health.


Russell has also written some books on circadian rhythms and the role of sleep, so they might be worth having a look at.
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Re: the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby Milieu intérieur » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:59 pm

Crazy thread, my specialty.

Trying for something more than sleeping's just evolved for energy conservation, part-related nights being dark'n dangerous, and cold perhaps. Before artifical lighting, heatiing too I suppose, that sort of thing. Back on the african savanna and after.

Clearly some processing of experience happens while asleep, the wetware's busy doing something, doing good for the wetware and all.

To the madness.

Between maybe 150, 000 and 500, 000 years ago an accident happened in nature, being this self-awareness thing that got replicated. The jury's out on what exactly qualifies as conscious/ness.

The most basic indication might be of another sense that sees/feels thought/mental activity preceding action/s, or inhibition of action, that sort of thing.

A lot of what a person might action is inhibited/disabled by sleep, or in the sleep state. Senses are folded back, which'd be part related to normal physical action/s being disabled. Immobilized even maybe's an okay word.

Following's the weird part.

The idea that humans have sort of an array of mind tools that results in internal sensing of the mind's activity is straightforward enough (of wakefulness). What though of experience and that taken inside, senses folded back, the work of the mind tools in a new configeration minus the distractions of wakeful sensory input.

Following's the out of my brain part.

Consider the possibility that the sleeping example is a substantially different being. For my purposes think of it as a separate being (in ways). A second being (hold off on the recommendation of antipsychotics).

Of course it doubtful feels as of a second being (read it's a different mental state), because the familiarity and intimacy is probably greater minus wakeful sensory inputs.

So, the idea is that whatever example sleeping human is a different creature to the wakeful human. That the two communicate, reconcile whatever (even unconclusion), perform some magic.

Between them they somehow arrive at there being realities that're other than what minds do. Which's probably a great comfort.
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Re: the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby *jj* » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:31 am

"Consider the possibility that the sleeping example is a substantially different being. For my purposes think of it as a separate being (in ways). A second being (hold off on the recommendation of antipsychotics)."
:)
Am beginning to see where your'e going .. but alas only with help of "crutch" of reading other stuff that gets into how one person's brain can in fact house two completely independent minds ...

Even that I remembered first through a Schultz cartoon that had Linus holding his blanket and saying "Why, the Theological implications alone are staggering!"

Integrating the two (or more might be ?) seamlessly as we do, to make a single experience or NOT being able to at all because of total disconnect of each totally fascinated me.

Now out into that sunshine, coffee and mattock (digging up aggies too) in hand
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Re: the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby Milieu intérieur » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:12 pm

Things being separated by time and space is fairly straightforward of everyday experience, what though of the possibility of being separated by mental states (somewhat different global configurations of the CNS, and function).

Amongst other things this allows running of cause and effect relations with different parallel relations in imagination, of past events into the future (projecting of, anticipating, predicting, related will and influence, predictive power, and more). Of course this is done while wakeful too, but there're the impositions of sensory input. The configurations of wakefulness might be limited because they'd distort immediate sensory input processing.

Not sure what this has to do with attributing a significance to minds arriving at there are other realities other than what minds do. It's a bit the sky is blue. A poke at social constructionism and the like maybe.

Moods are a recognizable sort of reconfiguration, it might be said. Applyin' the mental tools and energies differently.

The sleep state though's substantially different, with sensory input folded back, disabled.

It may be that some of the cognitive tricks performed while asleep would be disconcerting and distort sensory input if they happened while wakeful. Perhaps it happens sometimes, but there're mechanisms to stop it happening, or tend so.
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Re: the work of minds (senses folded back)

Postby Milieu intérieur » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:43 pm

"...The configurations of wakefulness might be limited because they'd distort immediate sensory input processing..."

Above's perhaps a terribly arranged sentence.

they'd up top in that quoted meaning the wakeful processing (of sense input) is somewhat contained/constrained. It has to be reliable, and closely related the correspondence between sense inputs too need be reliable.

And there're analogs in more regular human behaviours anyway. Like humans for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years have indulged drugs and done whatever in a semi-stupor or trance, sought hallucinogenic affects even, like LSD and others.

The impositions of sense inputs can be wearing, and habituating.

It strikes me that the explanation humans sleep so not so tired while awake is not quite the same thing as humans do whatever they do while awake so they can get good and adequate rest/sleep (comfortable secure nest, worries minimized).
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